ESC 2004 - Where Do We Go From Here?

[Bigsnitch]

So, it's all over for another year! Terry Wogan's packed away his book of
clichés (although he did have some valid points to make), the winning 'song'
is dire, even by ESC standards, the voting system is a disgrace, the
presenters were amateurish (especially Bela Lugosi) and very under
rehearsed, and as for the half-time entertainment, if I were an Irishman
called Bill Whelan, I'd be suing. On the plus side, I liked the staging and
generally it went a whole lot better than I thought it would.

We're used to the political voting - Greece and Cyprus, the 'old' Baltic
states giving each other 12 points etc - it used to be part of the whole
absurd charm of the event - but what we're seeing now, and especially what
we saw last night, just makes a mockery of the whole thing.

Personally, I didn't think that many of the songs were particularly
memorable this year, although I did only hear the majority of them for the
first time as they were performed last night (then again, I voted for Norway
so what do I know?).

I honestly thought that our entry (UK) this year wasn't too bad and
while I never thought it would win, I certainly thought it deserved better
than it got. Maybe if James had had some frenzied backing singers, whipped
his kit off to reveal a leather jockstrap and nipple piercings he would have
won, and why not, it worked for Ukraine and Greece.

After last night's voting fiasco, I can't see how the contest can survive
much longer in it's present form unless 'something' is done to stop the
whole Balkan/Baltic/former USSR states block voting. However, what that
'something' is, I don't know, but I think that the EBU need to start
addressing the problem.

Also, and this is a personal thing, I think they need to go back to placing
the emphasis on the songs, not so much on the presentation. Would Ukraine,
or Greece for that matter, have got as many votes as they did if the artists
had simply stood in front of microphone and just sung their songs? (I'm
being generous to Ukraine and referring to their entry as a song). Bucks
Fizz have a lot to answer for!

Maybe it's just time to acknowledge that the 'good old days' of the
traditional ESC are gone forever and this is just the way that things are
going to be in the brave new world of 21st century Europe.

Here's to 2005, in whatever form it takes.

Martin

[Princess Morgiah]

Post by Bigsnitch
So, it's all over for another year! Terry Wogan's packed away his book of
clichés (although he did have some valid points to make), the winning 'song'
is dire, even by ESC standards, the voting system is a disgrace, the
presenters were amateurish (especially Bela Lugosi) and very under
rehearsed, and as for the half-time entertainment, if I were an Irishman
called Bill Whelan, I'd be suing. On the plus side, I liked the staging and
generally it went a whole lot better than I thought it would.

Dire? That's a matter of taste. And yes, I do consider the winning song to
be a song (by any standards).

I have to agree though on the presenters, sometimes it just looked as if
someone had just thrown them out there on the stage, after telling them 'oh
and by the way, you'll be hosting this show here tonight'.

The half-time entertainment didn't do it for me either, but then again who
am I?

Post by Bigsnitch
We're used to the political voting - Greece and Cyprus, the 'old' Baltic
states giving each other 12 points etc - it used to be part of the whole
absurd charm of the event - but what we're seeing now, and especially what
we saw last night, just makes a mockery of the whole thing.

Ah yes, the voting - I knew I left something to rant about in my initial
statement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this year the first year with
an overall televoting system? Don't tell me ALL voters had a political
motive on their minds!

I'm really not saying that there was no political voting, just that had
there been a professional jury as was the case in previous events, the
results would be even clearer.

Post by Bigsnitch
Personally, I didn't think that many of the songs were particularly
memorable this year, although I did only hear the majority of them for the
first time as they were performed last night (then again, I voted for Norway
so what do I know?).

Here here. After hearing all the songs of this year's event, I must say that
I was left with a very very strong Idols/Fame
Academy/Whatever-you-want-to-call-the-event feeling.

It came to me as a big surprise to see just how many candidates had followed
this route to get there.

Memorable? That's a laugh. If I want to remember more than half of the songs
presented, I would need the artists's picture, the song lyrics, and the
upcoming DVD. And even then some would seem to slip my mind (possibly on
purpose).

That is in my honest opinion one of the reasons Ruslana deserved first
place: here I am, defending her and her Wild Dancers a few days after the
event, listening to a broad range of musical genres and somehow this song
still repeats itself in the back of my mind. In a good way, that is.

Post by Bigsnitch
I honestly thought that our entry (UK) this year wasn't too bad and
while I never thought it would win, I certainly thought it deserved better
than it got. Maybe if James had had some frenzied backing singers, whipped
his kit off to reveal a leather jockstrap and nipple piercings he would have
won, and why not, it worked for Ukraine and Greece.

Although I did not find his performance all that bad, I did have to look up
his song on the website to recognize it through the lyrics. Sorry. Didn't
need the DVD though ;)

Post by Bigsnitch
After last night's voting fiasco, I can't see how the contest can survive
much longer in it's present form unless 'something' is done to stop the
whole Balkan/Baltic/former USSR states block voting. However, what that
'something' is, I don't know, but I think that the EBU need to start
addressing the problem.

Well, given the simple fact that I'm happy with the main result, I'd have to
disagree with you.

There is talk of an even larger Eurosong event next year or in the years to
come, so maybe that will solve it. Time will tell, I guess...

Post by Bigsnitch
Also, and this is a personal thing, I think they need to go back to placing
the emphasis on the songs, not so much on the presentation. Would Ukraine,
or Greece for that matter, have got as many votes as they did if the artists
had simply stood in front of microphone and just sung their songs? (I'm
being generous to Ukraine and referring to their entry as a song). Bucks
Fizz have a lot to answer for!

Funny you should mention Greece. I tipped Ukraine as the winner the moment I
heard the song (and agreed, saw the accompanying show/dance), but I also
tipped Greece as a favourite because it somehow represented Eurosong the
last decade. At least it did for me. I didn't like the song, but it had a
certain Eurosongish feel to it. Hard to explain.

For me Ukraine was a certain winner simply because:
- it was the best song (yes, song) for me (which depends on personal taste
of course)
- agreed, the big show and dance gave them an extra punch to the top
- the last few years uptempo songs have won more than slower songs, as
opposed to the years before that (Eimear Quinn & Secret Garden spring to
mind instantly, two beautiful songs as well)

The fact that this song was one of the very few catchy songs did help a lot
of course. Other possible songs I tipped were the songs by Albania, Greece
and Sweden.

And our very own Belgium. Always said we would end last, until the night
itself. Don't know why I ever changed my mind on that song, but hey we
didn't win it anyway.

Would Ukraine have won without the show? Imho, a big Yes.

I for one am planning to follow Ruslana and her Wild Dancers for a while. A
long while.

Post by Bigsnitch
Maybe it's just time to acknowledge that the 'good old days' of the
traditional ESC are gone forever and this is just the way that things are
going to be in the brave new world of 21st century Europe.

We'll have to wait and see what happens next year, I suppose?

Post by Bigsnitch
Here's to 2005, in whatever form it takes.

Here here. Let's just say it'll all be better next year somehow.

Princess Morgiah

[D.A.L.]

<BIG snip>

Post by Princess Morgiah
Here here. Let's just say it'll all be better next year somehow.

I actually thought it was a very good *song and dance* contest and
particularly liked (in no particular order)

Belgium
Cyprus (made me cry)
Germany
Sweden
Serbia
Ukraine

I thought our entrant was (as in previous years) diabolical. Whoever
decided we should pick a failed Fame Acadamy contestent should be shot at
dawn - how many countries fronted a well known (to them) popular artist?

OK - the voting stinks but it always has. If you ever need to worry that
the UK will never ever win it again then now is the time. Perhaps we should
send in seperate entrants for England, Wales and Scotland, however, my guess
is that nobody will still vote for the English.

[Bigsnitch]

Post by D.A.L.
OK - the voting stinks but it always has. If you ever need to worry that
the UK will never ever win it again then now is the time. Perhaps we should
send in seperate entrants for England, Wales and Scotland, however, my guess
is that nobody will still vote for the English.

LOL!!! :-))

[Darren Parker]

Post by Bigsnitch
So, it's all over for another year! Terry Wogan's packed away his book of
clichés (although he did have some valid points to make), the winning 'song'
is dire, even by ESC standards, the voting system is a disgrace, the
presenters were amateurish (especially Bela Lugosi) and very under
rehearsed, and as for the half-time entertainment, if I were an Irishman
called Bill Whelan, I'd be suing. On the plus side, I liked the staging and
generally it went a whole lot better than I thought it would.
We're used to the political voting - Greece and Cyprus, the 'old' Baltic
states giving each other 12 points etc - it used to be part of the whole
absurd charm of the event - but what we're seeing now, and especially what
we saw last night, just makes a mockery of the whole thing.
Personally, I didn't think that many of the songs were particularly
memorable this year, although I did only hear the majority of them for the
first time as they were performed last night (then again, I voted for Norway
so what do I know?).
I honestly thought that our entry (UK) this year wasn't too bad and
while I never thought it would win, I certainly thought it deserved better
than it got. Maybe if James had had some frenzied backing singers, whipped
his kit off to reveal a leather jockstrap and nipple piercings he would have
won, and why not, it worked for Ukraine and Greece.
After last night's voting fiasco, I can't see how the contest can survive
much longer in it's present form unless 'something' is done to stop the
whole Balkan/Baltic/former USSR states block voting. However, what that
'something' is, I don't know, but I think that the EBU need to start
addressing the problem.
Also, and this is a personal thing, I think they need to go back to placing
the emphasis on the songs, not so much on the presentation. Would Ukraine,
or Greece for that matter, have got as many votes as they did if the artists
had simply stood in front of microphone and just sung their songs? (I'm
being generous to Ukraine and referring to their entry as a song). Bucks
Fizz have a lot to answer for!
Maybe it's just time to acknowledge that the 'good old days' of the
traditional ESC are gone forever and this is just the way that things are
going to be in the brave new world of 21st century Europe.
Here's to 2005, in whatever form it takes.
Martin

Some good points Martin, but I think we're stuck with the "performance" side
of Eurovision, if only to keep the ratings up. It would be very boring to
watch if everyone simply stepped up to their microphone, sang and departed.
If no-one is watching then that will kill the contest just as surely as the
rigged voting is doing.

How about these for some suggestions as to the way forward :

1/ Stop singing to tapes and bring back a full backing orchestra of real
musicians.

2/ Limit the number of performers allowed on stage for any one song, to stop
huge dance troupes running away with the contest.

3/ Split Europe into zones for the purposes of voting, with all the slavic
counties in one zone, the baltics in another etc.. Then, change the voting
rules so that you cannot vote for any other country within your zone. Surely
this is the only way forward as far as voting is concerned?

As it stands, no "traditional european" countries (Uk, Ireland, France
etc.. ) will ever win the contest again and that's a real shame. Does anyone
have any contacts at the EBU? Are they actually looking at this or don't
they care? If nothing is done, many countries will follow Italy's lead and
simply jack it in.

Any other suggestions?

[Adrian Collins]

Post by Darren Parker
1/ Stop singing to tapes and bring back a full backing orchestra of real
musicians.

I'm not sure that that is a good thing nowadays personally, makes things
seem a bit dated.

Post by Darren Parker
2/ Limit the number of performers allowed on stage for any one song, to stop
huge dance troupes running away with the contest.

Its limited to 6 people on stage anyway

Post by Darren Parker
3/ Split Europe into zones for the purposes of voting, with all the slavic
counties in one zone, the baltics in another etc.. Then, change the voting
rules so that you cannot vote for any other country within your zone. Surely
this is the only way forward as far as voting is concerned?

I'd agree with you if it was a jury but now that its a public phone vote,
it's as fair as it's going to get.

Post by Darren Parker
As it stands, no "traditional european" countries (Uk, Ireland, France
etc.. ) will ever win the contest again and that's a real shame. Does anyone
have any contacts at the EBU? Are they actually looking at this or don't
they care? If nothing is done, many countries will follow Italy's lead and
simply jack it in.
Any other suggestions?

Well, the 'traditional European' countries such as France, Netherlands, UK
and Luxembourg havent won since 1983 anyway. OK, the UK won in 1997 but that
was with a song that everyone knew would win, like Nicole's A Little Peace,
that you probably get once every 10 years or so.

Ireland (not sure i'd bracket them with the above) - I am glad that they
haven't done well lately, I think the period when they won 3 years in a row
was rock-bottom for the contest, which was in a much worse state then that
it is now.

I'm not sure that these countries won't ever win again - I'll hold on for a
few years to see how things pan out, after all in the last few years its not
as if any of their entries would have been sure-fire winners that have been
'robbed'.

The one thing that I would change though is the finals voting, I just think
that it should be the countries who are in the finals voting, not the beaten
semi-finalists.

Not actually sure that I agree with all countries voting in the semi-finals
either come to that.

Adrian

[Darren Parker]

Post by Adrian Collins

Post by Darren Parker
1/ Stop singing to tapes and bring back a full backing orchestra of real
musicians.

I'm not sure that that is a good thing nowadays personally, makes things
seem a bit dated.

Well, as a musician myself I guess I was a bit biased there. Always a shame
to see a recording replace a real orchestra, obviously the musicians union
doesn't extend to the EBU ;-)

Post by Adrian Collins

Post by Darren Parker
2/ Limit the number of performers allowed on stage for any one song, to

stop

Post by Darren Parker
huge dance troupes running away with the contest.

Its limited to 6 people on stage anyway

Ok, I didn't realise that. But how about limiting it further, unless they're
all actually singing? , and I don't mean just shouting Hah! every now and
again either ;-)

Post by Adrian Collins

Post by Darren Parker
3/ Split Europe into zones for the purposes of voting, with all the slavic
counties in one zone, the baltics in another etc.. Then, change the voting
rules so that you cannot vote for any other country within your zone.

Surely

Post by Darren Parker
this is the only way forward as far as voting is concerned?

I'd agree with you if it was a jury but now that its a public phone vote,
it's as fair as it's going to get.

But surely the public phone vote (not withstanding any conspiracy theories
as to whether it's genuine or not) merely shows that the general populous of
these countries is just as biased as their "expert" judging panels?
Certainly the present system is as fair as it's going to get, which is
precisely the reason for wanting it changed.

Post by Adrian Collins

Post by Darren Parker
As it stands, no "traditional european" countries (Uk, Ireland, France
etc.. ) will ever win the contest again and that's a real shame. Does

anyone

Post by Darren Parker
have any contacts at the EBU? Are they actually looking at this or don't
they care? If nothing is done, many countries will follow Italy's lead and
simply jack it in.
Any other suggestions?

Well, the 'traditional European' countries such as France, Netherlands, UK
and Luxembourg havent won since 1983 anyway. OK, the UK won in 1997 but that
was with a song that everyone knew would win, like Nicole's A Little Peace,
that you probably get once every 10 years or so.

Fair point, although I must admit I was pretty gobsmacked when we won in
'97. I didn't think we had a hope! (so what do I know?)

Post by Adrian Collins
Ireland (not sure i'd bracket them with the above) - I am glad that they
haven't done well lately, I think the period when they won 3 years in a row
was rock-bottom for the contest, which was in a much worse state then that
it is now.

I agree with you with regards Ireland. I hated all their sloppy ballads, but
I'm not sure I'd agree that those contests overall were quite as bad as it
is now.

Post by Adrian Collins
I'm not sure that these countries won't ever win again - I'll hold on for a
few years to see how things pan out, after all in the last few years its not
as if any of their entries would have been sure-fire winners that have been
'robbed'.

True, I certainly didn't think we'd win this year, but was disappointed and
surprised we still finished in the relegation zone. The song was better than
that and plenty of rubbish was ranked far higher.

The act I felt really sorry for was Cyprus. A few years ago she would have
romped home with that song/performance but not these days.

Post by Adrian Collins
The one thing that I would change though is the finals voting, I just think
that it should be the countries who are in the finals voting, not the beaten
semi-finalists.
Not actually sure that I agree with all countries voting in the semi-finals
either come to that.
Adrian

Definitely! That did strike me as a bit odd, not to say confusing.

I'll keep watching, I always do, but something really does have to change.
There's even been booing within the hall for the past couple of years when
some of the block votes came in. That can't be good can it?

Darren.